tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post115699250979085983..comments2023-12-27T11:23:38.346-05:00Comments on Vanguard Church - Bob Robinson: Are Megachurches Wrong? Analysis of David Wells’ CritiqueBob Robinsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08576734261775426385noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-51785615602131757072010-04-14T02:36:18.977-04:002010-04-14T02:36:18.977-04:00This post is so disgustingly bias, written by men ...This post is so disgustingly bias, written by men who get there paychecks from these megachurches. Jesus said it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to go to heaven. <br /><br />Whats that to say about the rich church which is supposed to reflect the gospels of Jesus Christ? Remember, leaders are held to an even higher standard. <br /><br />Do you really think if Jesus came back and walked in one of these churches with quadruple 72' TV's he would be happy? He would be turning over tables calling us Pharisees. Not to mention every single time we build one of these mega-churches we get closer and closer to Catholicism. <br /><br />The end does not always justify the means and just because there's more people filling the seats does not mean more seats are being filled in heaven.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-1158142359871972612006-09-13T06:12:00.000-04:002006-09-13T06:12:00.000-04:00I don't know Marc. I'm not against associations o...I don't know Marc. <BR/><BR/>I'm not against associations of house churches, but from what I read, it sounded like the story at Xenos is a bit more complicated than that.<BR/><BR/>If megachurches are truly parachurch organizations that facilitate local churches then I'd be the last to say they are antibiblical. <BR/><BR/>It sounds like Xenos is a better model. <BR/><BR/>dlwAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-1158066194437815982006-09-12T09:03:00.000-04:002006-09-12T09:03:00.000-04:00You're right that de facto segregation is complex,...You're right that de facto segregation is complex, but that doesn't mean having nominally mixed megachurches will promote racial reconciliation. <BR/><BR/>small house churches promote decentralization which in turn promotes honest power-sharing which promotes true reconciliation.<BR/><BR/>The issue hasn't been whether megachurches are "here to stay" but whether they are biblically justified or perhaps often economics-driven, with some potentially dangerous unintended consequences for the Church as a whole...<BR/>dlwAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-1157951280589083092006-09-11T01:08:00.000-04:002006-09-11T01:08:00.000-04:00Marc, at the end of the day, I think what matters ...Marc, at the end of the day, I think what matters is the proper discernment of whether there is a definitive biblical precedent for the notion of house churches. <BR/><BR/>From my study of church history, it seems that concentrated leadership associated with bigger churches have long been a critical source of problems that have harmed the witness of Xty...<BR/><BR/>And, as stated before, it seems that part of the justification of bigger churches is more economics-driven than purpose-driven. <BR/><BR/>You wrote:"TBH, I think it is highly problematic for most house churches to be able to truly be multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, and multi-racial by dent of the fact that a house church has to be located in a certain community and neighborhood which usually will be predominant with a specific racial or ethnic heritage. So I just don't see how a house church in a predominant white neighbor is going to attract a lot of non-whites. "<BR/><BR/>Well, obviously de facto segregation and the likelihood of having a multiracial composition of house churches would be bound together. <BR/><BR/>However, getting back to my earlier points, if we had a national healthcare system and got rid of the current morass of income tax exemptions and replaced it with a Basic Income Guarantee, another consequence would be that regional inequalities in housing values would be seriously reduced, as well as racial differences in income. This would contribute to reducing de facto segregation and make it more likely that local house churches would be inter-racial.<BR/><BR/>dlwDLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17709279441985086959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-1157748789818774632006-09-08T16:53:00.000-04:002006-09-08T16:53:00.000-04:00interesting analysis on megachurches... certainly ...interesting analysis on megachurches... certainly some things to consider. <BR/>*enjoying your blog.david c welkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11402282588817448145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-1157526775494595092006-09-06T03:12:00.000-04:002006-09-06T03:12:00.000-04:00Hi Marc,I doubt that the passage Bob quoted deals ...Hi Marc,<BR/>I doubt that the passage Bob quoted deals with the first "church" ever. I don't think the word church was used for specific communities until later. <BR/><BR/>I also would be wary about venerating the "first Church" in Jerusalem as they did not obey Jesus's command to go and be witnesses to the ends of the earth. They stayed in Jersusalem and eventually laid the seeds of the Judaizers that Paul later opposed. It took persecution and the acts of "nobodies" to advance the kingship of God beyond Jerusalem. <BR/><BR/>It's also noteworthy that the first church were called "brethren"(in NASB) and were a gathering of one hundred and twenty persons. To be among a brethren, I think connotes more like a smaller group, whereas church tends to refer to the whole.<BR/><BR/>Compare a NASB search of <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=brethren&version1=49&searchtype=all&spanbegin=47&spanend=51" REL="nofollow">Brethren</A> and <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=church&searchtype=all&version1=49&bookset=4" REL="nofollow">Church</A> of Matthew-Acts. <BR/><BR/>So I'm not quite certain of the biblical accuracy of Xenos's model.<BR/><BR/>My key point is that I fail to see why more hierarchy is needed to permit people to exercise their gifts of pastoring and/or preaching but that it seems that part of the existing rationale for such is more Economics and it would be better if our system made it easier to sustain more smaller churches.<BR/><BR/>dlwDLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17709279441985086959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-1157437733459774982006-09-05T02:28:00.000-04:002006-09-05T02:28:00.000-04:00So here's my thought: Yes there are differentials ...So here's my thought: Yes there are differentials in the ability of people to preach. I would not be a very good preacher. But does that justify megachurches? <BR/><BR/>Way I see it, preaching has as a key ingredient rhetorical ability and rhetorical ability has been long over-rated over the course of Christian history. Augustine was made a church leader with less training than he probably shd have had as a result of his rhetorical ability not too long after his conversion. What matters more is delving into the Word and how people internalize the message and make it shine in their lives. <BR/><BR/>At the end of the day, the megachurch you describe seems more like a parachurch than a local church. If the real action is happening at the sub-congregation level then one needs to ask whether the megachurch's structure is driven by Economics or the empowerment of the local sub congregations. <BR/><BR/>I think that there is a need for parachurch organizations, but there justification must be in how they serve the local churches and that we shd bear in mind the Catholic Social Thought criterion of <A HREF="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=&q=subsidiarity+socialization+Catholic+Social+Thought&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web" REL="nofollow">subsidiarity and socialization</A> in their organization.<BR/><BR/>my apologies for being a bit persistent on this point...<BR/>dlwDLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17709279441985086959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-1157382275087074162006-09-04T11:04:00.000-04:002006-09-04T11:04:00.000-04:00dlw,My point about the number Peter preached to is...dlw,<BR/><BR/>My point about the number Peter preached to is just this: Some over at Jesus Creed have argued that a preacher can't be affective preaching to such multitudes. Biblically, we've seen that it was effective. <BR/><BR/>Now, of course, this has little to say about whether or not a pastor can effectively pastor a megachurch, its just that he may effectively preach to a large crowd. <BR/><BR/>In order to effectively pastor that many people, I think that megachurch should be broken down into sub-congregations, thus the opportunity for "niche ministries" within a megachurch.Bob Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08576734261775426385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-1157361385139844552006-09-04T05:16:00.000-04:002006-09-04T05:16:00.000-04:00Bob, I don't think Peter's message to 4000 some pe...Bob, I don't think Peter's message to 4000 some people sets the precedent for ecclesial organization that you argue for it. <BR/><BR/>There is no reason that decentralized local churches cannot find ways to coordinate a variety of niche ministries and public speakers for large audiences.<BR/><BR/>The issue seems to be how much of the way we do church is economics-driven or stuff we inherited from the Constantinized Church of Europe?<BR/><BR/>dlwDLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17709279441985086959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-1157361036156513432006-09-04T05:10:00.000-04:002006-09-04T05:10:00.000-04:00Hi Marc,You tend to drive less with house churches...Hi Marc,<BR/><BR/>You tend to drive less with house churches, and, of course, one family doesn't drive at all.<BR/><BR/>As for whether they are monocultural, I think it's easier to deal with diversity in a setting where there are fewer people and less centralization in leadership. This is what permitted Chris Rice and Spencer Perkins to form an inter-racial fellowship that was the basis for their book, "More than Equals". <BR/><BR/>I didn't know about Xenos. I checked them out. They've had an interesting history. <BR/><BR/>I gotta say that I believe decentralization does matter and that a lot of the concentration strikes me as possible more <A HREF="http://sodsbrood.com/antimani/2006/09/02/the-economics-of-churches/" REL="nofollow">economics-driven</A>...<BR/><BR/>dwDLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17709279441985086959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-1157158434833636342006-09-01T20:53:00.000-04:002006-09-01T20:53:00.000-04:00Well, from what I recall from discussions on eccle...Well, from what I recall from discussions on ecclesiology, the argument for small churches is due to the view that Paul argued for the importance of decentralization in local churches and that such tends to only be possible in house-churches of 30 or less. <BR/><BR/>From my albeit limited experience, it seems that many megachurch leadership structures reflect the organization of Corporations. Leaders often care about their job security a bit too much and may inspire rivalry(perhaps like that between Piper and Boyd in MN, though I would say Boyd has been persistently better at turning the other cheek towards Piper and the Pipettes(my term).)...<BR/><BR/>I fail to see how coordination between local smaller churches would not facillitate a variety of niche ministries.<BR/><BR/>I think the problem is that our economic system discriminates against doing house churches well. If we had a National Health Care system so that everyone had reasonable health care, regardless of earnings, and a <A HREF="http://sodsbrood.com/antimani/2005/10/30/benefits-and-costs-of-a-basic-income-guarantee/" REL="nofollow">Basic Income Guarantee</A>, it would be easier for Christians to have smaller house churches with a couple of the members choosing to work only part-time so they can dedicate more of their time to study and ministry. <BR/><BR/>I also think that if we <A HREF="http://sodsbrood.com/antimani/2006/08/17/the-true-price-of-gas-8gallon-or-more/" REL="nofollow">taxed oil closer to its true cost</A>, we'd see a return to more local churches and fewer megachurches.<BR/><BR/>dlwDLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17709279441985086959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7110103.post-1156996630395707152006-08-30T23:57:00.000-04:002006-08-30T23:57:00.000-04:00Bob,Grand Rapids would not be as rich minus a numb...Bob,<BR/>Grand Rapids would not be as rich minus a number of the megachurches here, in my opinion. Some of them have the resources and will to do good works in the city. And really seem to be reaching folks who might otherwise not attend anywhere. And does seem to seek to get them integrated into a church life.<BR/><BR/>As for niche, I agree. Except I do think it's a good witness when we can have a multi-ethnic and cultural church, such as is true with some. Yet I do think churches can be taking a bum rap for this. <BR/><BR/>Thanks.Ted M. Gossardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10580691315315271791noreply@blogger.com